From meditationsjournal.org
The fall of the Berlin Wall (1989) seemed to herald the victory of capitalism over socialism, what Francis Fukuyama declared the “End of History;” the failure and death of both Marxist thought and political movements. Fukuyama, an eloquent Hegelian political philosopher and one-time neoconservative (and continued anti-Marxist) asserts uncompromisingly in his “End of History” essay that ideology, not economics or material circumstances, broadly determine human activity and the course of history. Fukuyama, in all subsequent writings that I have read (even up until today), continually advances this Hegelian perspective on history, and Slavoj Zizek, not just a Marxist but a Communist/Hegelian/Lacanian, wonders if, in light of the unimpeded charge of capitalism since 1989, we are not all “Fukuyama-ists.” In Zizek, probably the most famous philosopher of the last 10 years, we find a sysnthesis of Hegelian ideology (“THIS, I claim, is the best formula of how ideology works”) and Marxist materialism, and Zizek often defends Hegelianism despite his continual encouragement of proletarian solidarity (of course, there has always been a leftist Hegel camp that sees no contradiction in endorsing both him and Marx).
Since 1989, almost ubiquitously, Marxist philosophy has been relegated in the global north to acadamia and debate amongst intellectual Marxists and other radicals (in the global south, Marxism has had significant social and political influence, too extensive for this discussion). However, with the 2008 global financial crisis, Marxist thinkers have found a new platform and wider audience for declaring the continued vitality and relevancy of Marx’s insights and assertions. Marxist economist Richard Wolff, for example, went on a massive speaking tour to promote his book and video Capitalism Hits the Fan, in which he claims that not only has capitalism failed, but Marixsm and Socialism are the only viable alternatives. David Harvey, a Marxist Geographer (whatever that is) has gained a degree of mainstream academic acceptance with his Marxist critique of contemporary global financial capitalism. His “Reading Marx’s Capital” podcast and youtube has enjoyed widespread popularity, and he shared a stage with Nobel Prize winning economist Joseph Stiglitz, and detailer of capitalisms insidious tenacity, Naomi Klein, at least once.
Two giants of radical intellectualism (at least at one time) are avowed Marxists’ Antonio Negri and Michael Hardt. In their trilogy; Empire, Multitude, and Commonwealth, they show how capitalism has saturated the identity of all people and relations of all nations, but also offer a solution rooted deeply in Marxism. Furthermore, Negri in particular asserts that globalized capitalism has created a new class of person; the unemployed, un-utilized favela dweller in whom resides a great but un-profitable potential for productive, artistic, and revolutionary output (of course, it would be impossible to fully characterize the insights and assertions of these three large volumes in this blog post, suffice it to say they offer both an unintentional endorsement of [Empire], and counter-weight to [the other two], Fukuyama’s above depiction of Marxism and capitalism).
Regardless of capitalism’s supposed victory over socialism, Marxist thought has arguably grown in recent times and, as illustrated, both Marxist and anti-Marxist thinkers are still viable in todays intellectual and economic debate. Even Christopher Hitchens, radical leftist Trotsky-ite turned neoconservative, asserted until the end of his life that he was unapologetic about his Marxist leanings. In fact, he even reinforced another thinkers’ assertion in an article on “The Revenge of Karl Marx” that as long as capitalism lives, so too does Marx.
Dominic Romani
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Hi,
Awesomely articulated post. This class of people have been referred to in the past as the lumen-proletariat. These workers are are permanently disenfranchised, and even though they belong to the proletariat class, they possess no revolutionary potential. This class also includes the permanently unemployed, those purposely excluded from global capitalism, and those who can only live by the consumption of modern medicine, and cannot generate surplus value themselves.
Zizek and Hardt/Negri talk about this class differently, though all agree that they are purposefully and brutally disenfranchised by global capitalism. However, Negri/Hardt certainly feel there is incipient revolutionary potential here, the book multitude is about this, to an extent.
Thanks for the ideas, i am woefully under read on negri/hardt, i will be sure to check them out.
Khary, this will go along well with your reading of A Thousand Plateaus. Both, but especially Negri, have fully integrated Deleuzian terminology into their political philosophy.
Awesome link to the Stiglitz/Harvey discussion, thanks! I’m curious how they’ll interact. I actually think Stiglitz and Krugman aren’t all that far (at least in the sorts of inequality they focus on) from Harvey and Wolff, so that if economics was not politicized in a way that, say, physics is not, they would have no trouble finding all sorts of common ground.
I agree with you regarding commonalities shared by Stiglitz, Krugman, and Harvey (Wolff is new to me). If you follow Krugman, have you noticed his reference to Robert Gordon’s essay–on the third wave of the Industrial Revolution (technology)–quite a bit in the last six months?
http://faculty-web.at.northwestern.edu/economics/gordon/Is%20US%20Economic%20Growth%20Over.pdf
Tammy: Hadn’t read the Gordon essay, but I have now (it’s very interesting, thanks!), so I’ll be on the lookout for hints of it in Krugman.
Sure! I was stoked because this was BIG in the economic debate (saltwater/freshwater) economic schools of thought – technology and globalization.
Tammy – thanks for pointing out the article by Robert J. Gordon. I would encourage all to read the article. In the conclusion he states that a “Canadian or Swedish economist . . . would not be nearly so alarmed”. Partially true for Canada, the Conference Board constructs a social performance indicator for 17 major countries. Scandinavian countries all get an “A”, Canada a “B” and so on. The report can be found here:
http://www.conferenceboard.ca/hcp/details/society.aspx
You are welcome and thank you for the link. I was surprised Canada’s biggest demographic group living in poverty is the youth. Along with the U.S., China’s youth is a top concerns in their fiscal cliff. The children of the migrant worker coined “floating” or “low-end” population are having a hard time accessing their public school system. However, they managed to ride the 2008 crisis by implementing Keynesian economics.
In any event, Krugman didn’t reject Robert Gordon as a “doomsday sayer,” unlike many other well-known economists. And, I respect Krugman for that fact because I think something is off. The French philosopher, Bernard Stiegler does fascinating work re economics and social theories if you follow this.
while I agree with you to an extent, there is certainly a more decidedly Marxist flavor to Harvey and Wolff, especially when compared to Krugman. Krugman is a pretty strict Keynsian actually, whilst Stiglitz is…not sure how to characterize him but he certainly lacks the hard critical edge that Wolff has, and Harvey is also more radical than Stiglitz. Stiglitz and Naomi Klein are some of the most important figures of the last ten years, to be sure, and I’m glad i was able to fit them in.
Thank you very much for the summary and the links.
Nice summation, accurate as far as my limited knowledge goes: think I’m having a type of existential crisis, choosing parameters in thinking about solidarity in our difference, economics, and culture.
Picking-up on the 2008 financial crisis and “Two giants of radical intellectualism (at least at one time) are avowed Marxists’… . In their trilogy; Empire, Multitude, and Commonwealth, they show how capitalism has saturated the identity of all people and relations of all nations… .” I remember taking these topics much more seriously after being introduced to Joerg Rieger and his thinking through the lens of religious studies in his book “Christ & Empire: From Paul to Postcolonial Times”(2007). I feel so critical of positive psychology; maybe more like being stuck in the social-conflict approach. I don’t know, maybe I’m just critical of Christology, thinking it has a profound pull framing economic theories throughout western history.
Wonder if PEL might have any interest in Rieger’s take on the topic, because his approach is insightful. Here’s a link in case anyone’s interest in tweaked. http://homebrewedchristianity.com/2011/09/06/economics-theology-and-discipleship-joerg-rieger-on-homebrewed-christianity-116/
wow, never heard of Rieger but I am VERY interested in the subject matter. One thing i’ve learned over the years is that Negri and Hardt are extremely well-versed in Roman and Medieval history so i think your connection is completely relevant. Also, this discussion certainly links us back to The Protestant Work Ethic (something Fukuyama cites all the time) in that since the time of PWE, people have actually been tracing the “capitalist” or “buisness” ethic back to Paul, who is considered wholly responsible for turning Christianity into a global engine (which of course pre-dates the globalizing tendency of capitalism) There has been a lot of attention given to Paul lately, and even Zizek wrote a chapter in a collaberative work on Paul.
who is tracing capitalism, or any other “global-engine”, back to the ministry of Paul?
http://www.academia.edu/1063357/Paul_of_Tarsus_CEO_
http://www.academia.edu/1998160/Interpreting_Pauls_Collection_From_Capitalist_Criticism_to_Capitalisms_Troubled_Conscience
I probably overstated the case, though it is still there. I read an excellent article in The Atlantic several years ago about Paul shaping Christianity for maximum effectiveness, so to speak, and how it was a template for global capitalism. Having a difficult time locating the article, however the first link I provided is along these lines, and the second link is all i could find about another essay I’ve read, but again, I probably overstated the case.
here it is:http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2009/04/one-world-under-god/307335/
I don’t think you overstated and is nothing overt in acedemic study of religion, Roman law and social political structure (paterfamia).
Will read the Atlantic link. I’ll link Crossan and Rieger – these men argue Paul went head-to-head with the Roman law, which was an economic structure. I tend to be persuaded to understand western philosophy it’s helpful have to have a knowledge of Roman political philosophy (economics).
http://fora.tv/2011/08/11/Crossan_and_Rieger_Paul__Empire_and_Economics
Ah, Robert Wright – the non-zero-sum guy! Sincerely, thanks for the link.
can you think of something philosophical, and not theological, that JR would uniquely bring to the conversation?
Re: something philosophical not theological and JR, my take is understanding Roman law’s influence on social political philosophy and capitalist modernity in Europe and the U.S. is contextual and important. Historically the structure of Roman society and what most scholars consider authentic Pauline texts…internal critic of the Roman Empire and “trickle down” economics, IMHO.
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/medieval-political
http://www.encyclopedia.com/topic/Roman_law.aspx (this link gets to the heart of the matter)
I was hoping to get this in as the first comment but hopefully people see it. The links appear broken, when in fact i just put in one too many “HTTP”s if you can click on the link and simply delete the second “http//” and hit enter or refresh, it will take you to the link. Hopefully most people figured this out, because its too late for me to edit.
There was a good interview with Sidney Rittenberg on China. There are many running threads discussed in the interview that ties into topics in this blog.
(Source:You can hear the interview here:http://m.theatlantic.com/china/archive/2013/05/sidney-rittenberg-on-china/276207/)
I think US-China relations are of major importance for many reasons, the predominate reason being our childrens generation will have to be knowledgeable about China and Japan, natural world resources, etc. etc. …. I could go one and one till the break of dawn (little humor there re a hip hop song).
I do see US relations with China one of major importance in my attempt to balance nationalism not only found among the Chinese but also found in Americans.
I welcome your comments and thinking about this topic.
I think that China has long since walked away from any Communist/Marxist philosophy, no?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_yMxgVbNNMY
I think James Fallow is a reliable source. Do you dmf?
when he is reporting Fallows is quite good but as political/economic theorist I find him to be quite lacking (he could use a bit of Harvey) and increasingly I find that he blurs the line between reporting and opining (maybe a side-effect of blogging?), as long as the only model for success is Growth we will be in a perpetual state of conflict with China and all.
on my reading list:
http://newbooksinhistory.com/2013/05/20/christian-caryl-strange-rebels1979-and-the-birth-of-the-21st-century-basic-2013/
for a more deleuzian/whiteheadian take on these matters you might enjoy William Connolly:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bMQurDWeeN0
The only model is not growth which Rittenberg discusses in the interview.
Given what your concerns are–appreciate your comments–,I think you’ll find the interview refreshing and welcome your thoughts on the interview and the essay by Drucker.
I will follow-up on your links and hope you will do the same or, I think, we are just speaking past each other.
This is interesting for reasons specifically I was thinking about following-up on the topic Christian Caryl is speaking about. One article I read is by the author Paolo G. Carozza called The Catholic Church, Human Rights, and Democracy: Convergence and Conflict with the Modern State.
I just want to make sure I’m being objective even though I lean toward JR and have a book by him that’s on my summer reads list re globalization.
To be honest I find this topic fascinating and think Americans can be paranoid (without reason) when it comes to China. I hope you give the interview with Rittenburg a chance. Anyway, I would say I’m in the heart of Military complex in the state I live in. Here’s an interesting bit of fact re technology from radio to digital.
http://www.bliley.net/XTAL/docs/history-PDF/BEC_History-HR.pdf
don’t know Carrozza but I’ll google him soonish, got about halfway thru the Rittenburg and it was all quite familiar, does he get at describing actual alternatives to hyper-capitalism taking root somewhere in China later in the talk? I don’t think I’m paranoid about China but have many friends who do work in their realms of influence from the mainland to Africa and they seem quite committed to modern standards of development which are a nightmare in the anthropocence. The general intellectual stumbling block to most liberation theologies has been to produce a working alternative economic system on the scales needed to replace the current ones and than you know the whole issue(s) of our all-too-human psychologies/will…
Yes he does, which is very similar to what Harvey is suggesting. He also mentions China has taken a strong stand with North Korea re nuclear weapons by acknowledging and having open dialogue with their leader Kim Jong-un.
You let me know what you think after you finish the interview. I don’t know what to think. I think about IBM, the ratio of males to females in China (one child policy) and the US, the ghost cities in China and Keynesian economics during the 2008 financial crash. China, like the US is having a similar problem with education and like China our youth is the largest demographic group living in poverty. It’s a lot to think about and I do.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/23/world/asia/north-korean-leader-sends-envoy-to-china.html?_r=0
I have two of your links left and I’m focusing on D&R! Have a good evening.
No I don’t. I’m with Harvey on this one. How ’bout you?
http://www.youtube.com/user/readingcapital?feature=watch
If you have an interest in the song you can view it at “The Sugarhill Gang – Rappers Delight Lyrics (Full Version)” on youtube.
Perhaps I should have posted this comment in this thread in contrast and critiquing Rieger’s work attempting to be objective.
By way of contrast, in an attempt to be objective there is an essay by Peter F. Drucker I cited in my initial comment. I think Drucker makes some interesting observations re the state of American academia and the liberal arts looking back at the Stalinists’ appeal in the 1930s through an educational, political, and sociological framework.
(Drucker, Peter F. “Political Correctness and American Academe.” Society 35.2 (1998): 380-385. SPORTDiscus.)
There is an interesting article by Brendan Simms titled The Ghosts of Europe Past in the NTYs.
(Source:http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/10/opinion/the-ghosts-of-europe-past.html?src=un&feedurl=http%3A%2F%2Fjson8.nytimes.com%2Fpages%2Fopinion%2Findex.jsonp)
I find economics interesting for various reasons. But, a recent mapping caught my attention in Spatial Analysis that can be viewed here:http://www.spatialanalysis.ca/2011/global-connectivity-mapping-out-flight-routes/.
I wonder what is going on, all this coverage re the NSA–although important and agree a violation of our liberties–, I wonder why now?
Why now since according to David J. Lynch, “Though they bonded at their two-day California summit, sharing small talk about exercise and a shirt-sleeve stroll in the unforgiving desert sun, the presidents of the world’s two largest economies still confront a range of issues that threaten to pull them apart.
U.S. President Barack Obama and Chinese President Xi Jinping face protracted wrangling on cyber spying, North Korea’s nuclear ambitions and human rights. Long after the glow of their one-on-one chats — rare for American and Chinese official exchanges — has faded, the haggling will resume.”
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-06-09/california-summit-leaves-host-of-unresolved-u-s-chinese-issues.html
My understanding is the EU is ranking number one in GDP – higher than the US and China.
Any thoughts re this topic?
the new economy (well really economies) is largely online, the various people with supercomputers are tracking all kinds of data now because they can and it gives them more power, more access/control, more of the same really as far as I can tell.
That was the topic discussed in last night’s episode of Through the WormHole titled Where Does Life Begin:Global Network’s Effects on Humans.
some people want to frame these issues as a whole new order/epoch of existence (or at least of evolution) but I think that this overstates the impact of machines and underestimates the human factor:
http://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/philosopherszone/friedrich-kittler/4724990
This is an interesting podcasts. There’s an article discussing the humanities, “Yet the argument has implications for pedagogy that the report does not spell out. The competency argument necessitates, I believe, a rethinking of humanities education to move from a text-centered to a student-centered pedagogy. If the humanities are to pursue goals such as strengthening students’ language skills, enhancing their analytic capacities, and deepening their ability to understand, then the quality of the teaching enterprise has to be reconceived in terms of strategies for student learning, rather than exclusively with regard to the coverage of works and themes”
http://chronicle.com/blogs/conversation/2013/06/10/humanist-heal-thyself/?cid=at&utm_source=at&utm_medium=en
I’m wondering if Kittler’s critique is a similar one?
Kittler was a pretty radical post-humanist, there is a link to some of his lectures@EGS that I left at the ABC link above.
Does it follow logically (according to Kittler’s argument) that there was no leak?
This might be of interest.
http://physicsworld.com/cws/event/2013/jun/21/is-there-equality-in-the-way-we-communicate
not sure how the leaks fit in or not tho the idea that somehow we are at the mercy of technology does raise all kinds of worries about what responsibility means and how and to who/what it is attributed. The conference looks interesting I think you may like the work of the philosopher of science Isabelle Stengers:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ASGwo02rh8
How do stay calm re technology or do you worry? Thanks for the link.
I worry about the speed and size of the cyber-powers that be like those massive trading companies that collapsed the world markets and that folks like Jaron Lanier are right that this will just widen/quicken the gap between the haves and the have nots, and of course hacking/terrorism, but I don’t think that there is any substantial way to reign in such organizations so the question (to which I don’t have an answer) is how to try and live a humane life in the face of great powers and ongoing collapses of our environs? This is probably why many continental philosophers are back mining the great epic tragedies but that doesn’t really offer any solutions that I can see…
In my attempt to have a better understanding of technology (cyber-space) I read articles by Jules Polonetsky (http://obamaischeckingyouremail.tumblr.com/)
and while understanding humor often is a way to deal with these issues, a physical release from toxic stress – I don’t get it, when our civil liberties are being violated so intimately. I guess I should heed the advice, reminding me that to become upset with a person who doesn’t understand is demeaning the person and my own convictions – speak to others who share an understanding and concern of the topic in discussion.
It’s upsetting, the division among articulate thinkers on the topic who come discussing this topic with a strong Jesuit background.
Anyway, about the leak – I find the timing strange because of US delegation talks with China. California’s economy is strongly interconnected with China’s, and the leak came from the EU, whose GDP is stronger than the US and China’s. Add on, Russian President Vladimir Putin possibly offering Edward Snowden political asylum.
Correction edit: The leak came from the UK not the EU.
lots of good related lectures @:
http://www2.lse.ac.uk/newsAndMedia/videoAndAudio/channels/publicLecturesAndEvents/Home.aspx
Thanks.
Then there was no leak.
RS51 – Joseph Heath on Economics Without Illusions (audio/mp3)
“Guest Joseph Heath is the Director of the Centre for Ethics and Professor of Philosophy and Public Policy at the University of Toronto, author of “Economics Without Illusions: Debunking the Myths of Modern Capitalism,” joins us as we turn our skeptical eyes toward the treacherous dual terrain of economics and politics. We discuss the ways in which, with his book, he attempts to raise our economic literacy and empower us with new ideas. In it, he draws on everyday examples to skewer the six favorite economic fallacies of the right, followed by impaling the six favorite fallacies of the left. Heath leaves no sacred cows untipped as he breaks down complex arguments and shows how the world really works.” (copy and paste)
http://www.rationallyspeakingpodcast.org/show/rs51-joseph-heath-on-economics-without-illusions.html
Joseph Heath in conversation with Allan Gregg (video)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ac6KMUQgRuE&noredirect=1
much respect
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUh96oXYt18
6th Subversive festival
15/05/2013, 21:00h, cinema Europa
Alexis Tsipras & Slavoj Žižek: The Role of the European Left
Wow! The video is two hours long and a bit rambling.
I’d still recommend this podcast if you haven’t already listened to it. Because I’m really just going to sumarize it a bit.
RS51 – Joseph Heath on Economics Without Illusions (audio/mp3)
http://www.rationallyspeakingpodcast.org/show/rs51-joseph-heath-on-economics-without-illusions.html
The blog post above started out “The fall of the Berlin Wall (1989) seemed to herald the victory of capitalism over socialism, what Francis Fukuyama declared the “End of History;” the failure and death of both Marxist thought and political movements.”
In the podcast professor Heath talks about this. Communism as the attempt to do away with markets and prices etc. was a failure.
And more or less some form of liberal/social democracy seems to be the better political system.
And it seems for now we are going to be with some form of regulated capitalism/markets/trade.
It doesn’t matter if you’re on the left or the right and want to change this or that policy, have more or less social programs, you are still not getting away from capitalism in some form.
In the video one guy is Slovene and the other Greek. The forms of socialism in Europe are not alternative systems to capitalism. The state depends on capitalism to create goods, services, and mopney the state can then redistribute.
We can see in Greece and Spain and etc. what happens when people forget this. The state can no longer reditribute what it doesn’t have.
And as Joseph Heath says in the video interview the Swedish welfare state (capitalism) has produced a higher standard of living than communism ever did. We can look at the Scandinavian countries and see their high standards of living and social programs but they are still capitalist countries.
And that was Fukuyama’s point. We can see in China that they have really abandoned communism as an economic system and are really capitalists now.
And capitalism/trade has raised more people out of poverty and raised all of our living standards and extended our lives etc…. than any other system.
Matt Ridley: Deep Optimism (On this video you can got to 3 and skip the intros)
http://fora.tv/2011/03/22/Matt_Ridley_Deep_Optimism
much respect
Would it be okay to utilize Matt Ridley: Deep Optimism in a economics discussion?
I think so. He is a scientist but he was also a writer for The Economist.
And his book/talk is showing how through trade/exchange of goods and ideas human culture and civilization has moved and continues to move forward.(capitalism)
His idea that “ideas have sex” is a reference to sex in biological creatures, but this also applies to ideas and philosophies. So then we have a market place for the trade and exchange of goods and a market place of ideas for the trade and exchange of ideas. And in these market places new goods and ideas will be created. Looking back through the history and development of philosophy we can see this just as when we look back through the history and development of certain goods like computers.
This topic above was in reference to markets and price systems. And how even communist Russia had to marketize the system to try to make it work. And it failed. That’s why China has given up on communism as an economic system.
And how even countries we might think of as socialist in Europe are actually capitalist countries.
So if we look back at human development it centers around trade and markets and with trade/exchange of goods also comes the exchange of ideas.
When a person goes to work he/she is trading their time, skill, effort (values) for money (a value) to then trade/exchange for some other good or service (values).
much respect
Thanks. Interesting article that picks-up on the history of human development re trade and exchange of goods…ideas. http://www.lwbooks.co.uk/journals/soundings/pdfs/Vocabularies%20of%20the%20economy.pdf
hmm, we seem to differ greatly on how far gone things are, time will tell I suppose, cheers.
http://ced.berkeley.edu/bpj/2012/09/reactivating-the-social-body-in-insurrectionary-times-a-dialogue-with-franco-bifo-berardi/
@ Tammy interesting pdf.
I can certainly share many of the sentiments about wrongs of consumerism and how vocabularies frame and position us and even seem to dehumanize us.
“I saw she had on the back of her
t-shirt ‘Customer Liaison’. I felt flat. Our whole conversation seemed
somehow reduced, my experience of it belittled into one of commercial
transaction; my relation to the gallery and to this engaging person had
become one of market exchange. The very language positioned us, the
gallery, and our relationship, in a very particular way.
We know about this practice, and its potential effects, in many
arenas. On trains and buses, and sometimes in hospitals and
universities too, we have become customers, not passengers, readers,
patients or students. In all these cases a specific activity and relationship
is erased by a general relationship of buying and selling that is given
precedence over it.”
@dmf interesting interview with Italian theorist Franco “Bifo” Berardi. I too share some of his sentiments.
In the Matt Ridley talk and his book he talks about the computer mouse and about one of the many things the capitalist market does that we take for granted that the soviet union figured out very quickly and had to marketize the system to try to make it work.
Besides the price systems it get people from around the world working together, and for each other, in a bottom up decentralized distributed net work way to get thousand or millions of people at different times and places doing different things and taking different ideas from different people and places that don’t even know each or know how to make a computer mouse.
A critique of both pieces is they don’t turn their critique on themselves. If we re-frame our vocabularies of economy we are still framing names and positions. And “Bifo” wants to save something good in an idealized Marxism and against the stereo typical negatives capitalism.
But unfortunately many of the ideas he has of the good in Marxism “social civilization” are in fact more in liberal democracies and regulated capitalist economies than in communism.
In communism a “planned economy” the government regulates and dictates production. It owns every thing. It tells you what you can get or not. It regulates distribution. And it regulates labor, tells you what job you’re going to do for the good of society.
In a capitalist economy the labor market in a bottom up decentralized distributed net work way tells every one what jobs need to be done and how valuable those jobs are to society.
So I’m a not here to say that capitalism is wonderful and great and fair or any thing like that. It’s not.
I could write books about the problems with it. (And especially about banking !!)
But it, the market, or “the invisible hand of the market”, does a lot of things we take for granted and think just happen. And the reason communism failed as an economic system is they realized you can’t do without prices and the market. And people didn’t like the government dictating every aspect of their lives.
And people like to have some say in politics such as who gets elected.
But it’s not perfect and the government needs to be involved. This is where I differ greatly from the wishful thinking or fantasies of some who advocate all out laissez-fare capitalism.
So I think if you want to save something good in Marxist thought as “Bifo” does, it is to be found more in a social/liberal democracy and regulated capitalist economy like Sweden than it ever was in communism itself.
much respect
Perhaps. I’m thinking about the idea stated on pg 14 “(The idea that the City is a centre of wealth-creation is thus bizarre – it is more a centre of a system of wealth-extraction that spans the world.)”
Appreciate your thoughts and contribution. Thanks.
these sorts of parasitic northern state islands of prosperity are going the way of gated communities as the tropics of chaos spin wider and wider:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DTPeIBIaUy0
Interesting you mention the tropics because I read an article about Cuba–state of chaos–in the National Geographic yesterday. Which, I need to find on-line–thank you.
Still, from a theological lens, it still strikes me strange that liberation theologian, Hans Küng, didn’t feel competent to comment about the Argentina economic crisis and factors surrounding the tensions between their PM and then Arch Bishop when Benedict XVI resigned. There’s actually a good journalist who reports in the NTYs in the section World: Americas. Sadly, not many comments or contributions from Times readers. Then there’s the Spatial Analysis mapping (I linked above) along with record youth unemployment according to an article in Atlantic.
http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/05/europes-record-youth-unemployment-the-scariest-graph-in-the-world-just-got-scarier/276423/?goback=%2Egde_3044029_member_249111121
(Speaking for myself, I think to avoid these questions is a disservice to Catholicism.)
Anyway, re the video you posted, oddly, Christian Parenti’s ideas were similar ideas I contributed in an economic Regional Chamber and Growth survey. I aim to please, and rather disarrayed myself with vocabularies of the economy. I think, while admitting I could be wrong, there is a type of indoctrination that skews civil liberties that should be stood up for or one-by-one we will lose not only our liberty but understanding what our liberties are for. For example, I hear youth and adults through around the word “victimization,” in place of accountability.
I think this is a problem, in that, there’s a difference between teaching civics and law vs. manipulating youth who don’t know the difference while advocating civil rights (which does involve accountability). I hear the term to the point of rendering me utterly speechlessness, downright brain drain, and the emotional drama it stirs, in my not so humble opinion. I’ll go further and say the slogan coined “the war on poverty,” is just stupidity to me when asking for community participation and enthusiasm.
The common factor re world economies is our youth (globally) are the largest demographic groups living in poverty.
I can’t keep up with the ways in which the RCC courts oppressive powers and silences voices of liberation, if you get a chance check out Katherine Gibson:
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/journal/10.1111/%28ISSN%291467-8330/homepage/lecture_series.htm
@ Tammy and dmf I don’t even know where to begin to respond.
Both of you make reference to “liberation” perhaps if there is some good to hold onto in Marx it is how it inspires so many particularly on the “left” for a sense of social and political freedom and justice.
“these sorts of parasitic northern state islands of prosperity are going the way of gated communities as the tropics of chaos spin wider and wider”
Insight: Nordic nations grapple with ‘austerity lite’
http://news.yahoo.com/insight-nordic-nations-grapple-austerity-lite-092418606.html;_ylt=AnPl2ku8ZEHZzIYbY_YXtlsJVux_;_ylu=X3oDMTRkc2U4ZnZlBG1pdANBVFQgSG9tZSBDYXJvdXNlbCBOZXcEcGtnA2M2NjEyNWFjLTE0ZDItMzc3Ni04NDk4LWFhYjk0MzFmZDc5ZQRwb3MDNARzZWMDTWVkaWFCQ2Fyb3VzZWxNaXhlZExQQ0EEdmVyAzdhMTYyMmYyLWNiNjYtMTFlMi1iNmZmLTAyODJkNzI3N2I4ZQ–;_ylg=X3oDMTFkcW51ZGliBGludGwDdXMEbGFuZwNlbi11cwRwc3RhaWQDBHBzdGNhdANob21lBHB0A3BtaA–;_ylv=3
“Perhaps. I’m thinking about the idea stated on pg 14 “(The idea that the City is a centre of wealth-creation is thus bizarre – it is more a centre of a system of wealth-extraction that spans the world.)””
“It has not been as a result of
participation in production that they have gained their wealth. (The
idea that the City is a centre of wealth-creation is thus bizarre – it is
more a centre of a system of wealth-extraction that spans the world.) In
this sense much of the new economic elite is parasitic, extracting value
from the rest of society”
I’m in the U.S. and that is the great irony of the Occupy movement. That is the 99% against the one percent when in reality the U.S. and Europe are the elite one percent consuming 99% percent of resources. The poorest people in the U.S. live at a standard higher than two thirds of the rest of the world.
It’s an irony that Marx inspires this move for social justice freedom and equality when as a system in place it suppresses exactly that. And it was actually the enlightenment thinkers and liberal democracy and free markets that originally inspired the “left” for exactly these things.
But I think it is liberal/social democracies and markets that provide these things. Look at the rise of China and Brazil and Mexico which now has the richest man in the world.
“liberation theology” is not a surprise to me
The League of the Just was founded by German émigrés in Paris in 1834. This was initially a utopian socialist and Christian communist group devoted to the ideas of Gracchus Babeuf.
After Marx and Engels joined it later became the Communist League.
The communist doctrine each according to his need came from Acts 4:32–35, “All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of his possessions was his own, but they shared everything they had [...] there were no needy persons among them [...] the money [...] was distributed to anyone as he had need.”
And just as Christians don’t really want life forever, heaven is something other than life, heaven is escaping reality, so too I hear in many who advocate Marx a desire to escape reality into an imagined reality – utopia.
I don’t know about down loading from this site but you can press play on the player and listen.
Awesome discussion.
Eternal Return
FF: The Philosophy of Nietzsche – Joseph Brisendine
http://www.nuttymp3.com/mp3/1620147
much respect
Jeez, I’m in heaven reading your reply! Let me think.
@ Tammy and dmf I just reread the last comment and I didn’t mean “desire to escape reality” to be offensive.
In a way that Marx and the many inspired by his thought are motivated for social justice and liberation is a good thing. And to make change and to bring awareness to these kinds of thought and subjects need to happen.
But I’m still thinking of the above blog post in reference to “Francis Fukuyama declared the “End of History;” the failure and death of both Marxist thought and political movements”
And his point was that what is the alternative to some form of social/liberal democracy?
And what is the alternative to some form of regulated markets and pricing systems?
And communism was an attempt to do away with to do away with markets and pricing.
But even the Soviet Union had to marketize the system and calculate prices.
The links you given me are great philosophical or moral objections but not an alternative economic system.
So I guess Marx is good and relevant in regards to bringing awareness to social justice issues but not to economics. And that was Fukuyama’s point.
much respect
q, I don’t take offense (and not a supernaturalist was just commenting on the sociology/politics of the RCC) and also don’t identify with neo-marxists but rather with folks like Bifo who are trying to come to grips with the facts/collapses as they are unfolding, what if there is no overarching economic model(s) to replace our current (and often highly engineered) ways of exchange (which are not Unified) and yet those very modes of exchange are imploding while wrecking our environment and our efforts at statecraft as they go, Fukuyama (who I think has stepped back some from his earlier position as a neo-con confidence man) and all seem to be whistling thru the graveyard…
you might like
Periodic Apocalypse #2: Extermination of the Human Host??? podcast/mp3
How parasitic capitalism consumes, controls, and confines with Daniel Ceffeen Ph.D who was recently on the Partially Examined Life podcast on Deluze and Guattari. I’ve listened all of his podcasts.
http://nthmost.podomatic.com/
or
http://nthmost.podomatic.com/entry/2009-08-07T23_39_13-07_00
Daniel Coffeen’s other podcasts
http://danielcoffeen.podomatic.com/profile?p=2
much respect
thanks I’ll check it out.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2sq4YO9hYE
“Exits to the post-human future and after the drones”
You might find Robert Nelson of interest re economics.
http://www.independent.org/multimedia/detail.asp?m=228
if you decide to listen to the podcast it plays this song at one point
Adam Freeland – We Want Your Soul
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UxaFvaep4uc
I’ll add it to the list.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/16/world/asia/chinas-great-uprooting-moving-250-million-into-cities.html?hp