Posts Tagged Plato
Episode 18: Plato: What Is Knowledge?
Posted by Mark Linsenmayer in Podcast Episodes on April 20th, 2010
Podcast: Play in new window | Download (Duration: 2:17:56 — 126.3MB)
Discussing the Theaetetus and the Meno, two dialogs about knowledge.
We’re returning to Plato for a somewhat more thorough treatment than we gave him in Episode 1. This should be considered part two (Hume being #1) of three discussions intended to convey the main conflict in the history of epistemology between the empiricists (like Hume) and the rationalists (like Plato).
We slog through most of the Theaetetus, where Plato considers and rejects a series of mostly very lame conceptions of knowledge and replaces them at the end with… NOTHING. Seth is crushed. In the Meno, knowledge is “remembrance” (maybe), like anything worth knowing can’t be learned but only elicited out of the depths of your unconscious.
Plus, some discussion of recent blog activity here, like our Danto accolades and Wes’s comments on Jerry Fodor and Sam Harris.
Read along: http://evans-experientialism.freewebspace.com/plato_theaetetus.htm and http://evans-experientialism.freewebspace.com/plato_meno01.htm.
If you don’t like the funky background on those pages, just look these up via Project Gutenberg. I notice that those versions have an extensive commentary before the selection, which serves as a useful refresher AFTER you’ve read it as to what happened, as the twists and turns can be difficult to keep in mind.
Oh, and Seth did this diagram to express his love of the Meno.
End song: “Obvious Boy” by Mark Lint and the Fake from the album So Whaddaya Think? (2000).
Ripping the Classics
Posted by Mark Linsenmayer in Web Detritus on April 7th, 2010
An amusing article by Jeanette DeMain on Salon.com about Amazon one-star reviews of classic books caught my eye. Its thesis is that for every book our culture (or likely, you in particular) finds great, there’s likely a horrific review of it posted.
Now, of course many of these reviews are by semi-literate anti-intellectual assholes. Still, I think that history and other factors inevitably drive a wedge between current readers and classic works, and it requires getting used to a different style of storytelling, different cultural norms mixed up in the works, different agendas, etc. to appreciate the work.
So, yes, you can strive to learn enough to be a competent reader of Shakespeare, but there’s nothing wrong with admitting you don’t have the stamina to do that or that, despite how anti-intellectual it may make you look, you actually don’t enjoy reading Shakespeare, or Brontë, or Thomas Hardy or whomever your high school teachers tried to get you to appreciate.
I tend not only to “see” (i.e. abstractly recognize) the works I’ve given substantial time to in both a positive and negative light, but I feel (i.e. viscerally react to depending on my mood) these aspects as well. My “guilty pleasures” are not purely pleasurable, and (as should be clear from the podcasts) I find many of the works I admire to be painful. I think it’s a mistake to try to resolve this ambivalence. Yes, it’s rewarding to work past the barriers into appreciating something, but it’s also pleasurable to bitch about it. One can, without hypocrisy, do both.
I’ve only taken a second here to look up low-star reviews on philosophy works. Here are some amusing partial dismissals of Plato’s Republic. Interestingly, I couldn’t find any one-star reviews of the first few Plato listings at all apart from one person criticizing the vendor’s delivery practices.
I did, however, find a one-star review of Descartes’s Meditations:
Overly repetitious
This review is from: Discourse on Method and Meditations on First Philosophy, 4th Ed. (Paperback)
Descartes seems like the sort of guy who likes the sound of his own voice, not unlike a philosophy professor! He has only a handful of points, a few of them interesting but the majority pure academic fluff, and he spends over 100 pages just reiterating his ideas and logic behind them. It seemed like a modern editor would read the manuscript, and whittle it down to a maximum of 25 pages. I am not surprised that various classes on philosophy only use excerpts of Descartes’ work.
Feel free to reply to this post with anything amusing you run across.
The Dog: Civilization’s Best Friend (and a “true philosopher”)
Posted by Wes Alwan in Web Detritus on March 17th, 2010
The New York Times (my emphasis):
Dog domestication and human settlement occurred at the same time, some 15,000 years ago, raising the possibility that dogs may have had a complex impact on the structure of human society. Dogs could have been the sentries that let hunter gatherers settle without fear of surprise attack. They may also have been the first major item of inherited wealth, preceding cattle, and so could have laid the foundations for the gradations of wealth and social hierarchy that differentiated settled groups from the egalitarianism of their hunter-gatherer predecessors. Notions of inheritance and ownership, Dr. Driscoll said, may have been prompted by the first dogs to permeate human society, laying an unexpected track from wolf to wealth.
Plato’s Republic:
Is not the noble youth very like a well-bred dog in respect of guarding and watching?
Like the ideal Guardians of the City “well-bred dogs are perfectly gentle to their familiars and acquaintances, and the reverse to strangers.” And:
Why, a dog, whenever he sees a stranger, is angry; when an acquaintance, he welcomes him, although the one has never done him any harm, nor the other any good. Did this never strike you as curious? … And surely this instinct of the dog is very charming; your dog is a true philosopher. … Why, because he distinguishes the face of a friend and of an enemy only by the criterion of knowing and not knowing. And must not an animal be a lover of learning who determines what he likes and dislikes by the test of knowledge and ignorance? … And is not the love of learning the love of wisdom, which is philosophy?
This is an ironic play on substantives (a form of Socratic cheating frequent in the dialogues — which another way of saying what Socrates says elsewhere, that mythological hypostatizations are favored over logical validity): Ignorance is the enemy and Knowledge the friend, but what philosophers are ignorant of and do not possess is what they desire and seek without end (knowledge, wisdom (sophia)). And their enemies are the doxa (opinions) and doxosophia (conceit of wisdom) that arguably hold together societies, tribes, and families. Tribalism and patriotism are a matter of blind loyalty — to country and values. The rest is youth-corruption and making the lesser argument seem the better. So if we take the stranger as representing ignorance in general, the dog and the philosopher are the same; if we take it as representing something unknown, then reverse that. The dog-stranger conflict either represents a confrontation with one’s own (and so one’s City’s) dearly held beliefs (to be excised by dialectic), or a confrontation with everything foreign, unknown, and generally other. The conflict inherent in the City is that it requires both a tough cell membrane to ward off invaders, and tolerance for the kind of free-thinking that founds sophisticated institutions but in its skepticism might be interpreted as treasonous. Think of someone telling you, “you better be happy the troops are fighting for your right to say that.” The paradoxical implication — one highlighted in Machiavelli and Hobbes — is that pockets of civilized order (and such concepts as “rights”) are founded in violence and brute force of one kind or another. The philosophical dog, by the way, is a favorite of some Straussians, as a kind of mascot for realpolitik (and if some critics are right, neoconservatism): we must reward our friends and hurt our enemies, without regard for justice (in this case we read between the lines and don’t take the Socratic rejection of Thrasymachus’ might-makes-right at face value).
Incidentally, the tough-exterior/soft-interior paradox is a far-reaching theme: the tough route is the practical one (wage war against the world, join the rat race, get rich) and the soft route the idealistic one (starve in humanities grad school or while finger-painting in a Manhattan loft). It also goes to the general question of psychological boundaries and the economy of letting the outside in without falling apart as a result (like a cell that can’t maintain homeostasis); the City after all is for Socrates just a large scale model of the soul. And to take up a theme also addressed in the Gorgias and other dialogues, we must make decisions about the thickness of such membranes: the outward-directed violence (towards potential invaders of all kinds, ideas included) has inward costs. In the extreme case, to be a perpetrator of injustice is worse than being its victim because of the inner deformity it causes: it’s one thing to be invaded from without, it’s another to destroy oneself from within via too-rigid and consequently brittle defenses. Witness the question of whether the idea of “fighting terror” by morally repugnant (but outward-directed) means has consequences for a society’s institutional integrity (the softer and finer structures involving law, due process, and civil liberties). To move back again to the psychological — or psychoanalytic — view: psychological defenses (including repression and projection) are useful up to a point. After that point, they may become a debilitating sickness. Likewise, your autoimmune system may go postal on you. And so the ideal proposed in the Republic involves purely outward-facing guardians — anti-philosophical in one direction and philosophy-grounding in the other. If they fail to maintain their position, the city or the soul are in big trouble. It’s a precarious balance.
And so I like the idea that the dog may have quite literally played this role — that this Platonic metaphor, at a critical and foundational moment, was instantiated; with dogs implicated in an abiogenesis for civilization, spontaneously aligning themselves like the hydrophilic/phobic poles of the lipids that form cell membranes.
If this sounds like so much pretentious bullshit, I’ve saved the best part for last (the scraps, tossed from the very edge of the campground):
His team has also used the dog SNP chip to scan for genes that show signatures of selection. One such favored dog gene has a human counterpart that has been implicated in Williams syndrome, where it causes exceptional gregariousness. Another two selected genes are involved in memory. Dogs, unlike wolves, are adept at taking cues from human body language, and the two genes could have something to do with this faculty, Dr. Wayne said.
The cure for exceptional gregariousness: philosophy.
Part 2 of Episode 1: “The Unexamined Life Is Not Worth Living.”
Posted by Mark Linsenmayer in Podcast Episodes on May 13th, 2009
Podcast: Play in new window | Download (Duration: 45:00 — 41.2MB)
More discussion of Plato’s “Apology.”
Incidentally, the “celibacy society” that Seth refers to at one point in here has a T-shirt.
Part 1 of Episode 1: “The Unexamined Life Is Not Worth Living.”
Posted by Mark Linsenmayer in Podcast Episodes on May 12th, 2009
Podcast: Play in new window | Download (Duration: 42:11 — 38.6MB)
Discussing Plato’s “Apology.”
This reading is all about how Socrates is on trial for acting like an ass and proceeds to act like an ass and so is convicted. Big surprise. On this our inaugural discussion, Mark, Seth, and Wes talk about how philosophers are arrogant bastards who neglect their children, how people of all political stripes don’t usually examine their fundamental beliefs (but probably should), why it might be better to know you know nothing than to only think that you know nothing, and how Plato was a super genius all of whose texts you should worship uncritically. Plus : podcaster philosophical origin stories, like when Wes was bitten by a radioactive Anaxagoras.
To increase your enjoyment, download and read Plato’s Apology.

Episode 16: Danto on Art
Posted by Mark Linsenmayer in Podcast Episodes on March 4th, 2010
Podcast: Play in new window | Download (Duration: 2:13:28 — 122.3MB)
What effect should the avant garde have on our understanding of what art is? We read three essays by modern, first-rate American philosopher Arthur Danto, all published in The Philosophical Disenfranchisement of Art (1986): the title essay, “The Appreciation and Interpretation of Works of Art,” and “The End of Art.”
I understand you may not have heard of Danto, and you may think modern art is goofy, but you’ll definitely enjoy this discussion and the reading anyway. Danto gives a picture of philosophy and art at war throughout history: philosophy says that art can’t get at truth and is otherwise useless, yet philosophers like Plato seem afraid of the power of art to corrupt. What’s the deal?
Also, Danto claims that art is over; the end of art has happened. So suck it, artists. (Actually, artists can keep on doing what they’re doing; they’re fine, yet art is still over.) Plus, can you stare at a urinal and thereby make it art? What if it’s in a museum? Danto loves them crazy ass post-modern artists, and thinks that their work shows that art was not what we thought it was.
Plus, Seth talks about the plane crashing into the IRS building near his house, and we respond some listener postings.
This work is unfortunately not available free on the Internet, but is worth your purchase. Try Amazon or your preferred bookseller. We also refer heavily to Calvin Tomkins’s “The Bride and the Bachelors.” For a summary of “The End of Art,” you can read this excerpt from one of Danto’s later books: http://press.princeton.edu/chapters/s5911.html. You could also check out the Amazon preview of Danto’s book “The Transfiguration of the Commonplace,” which we refer to a bit.
End song: “This Night Before the End,” by Mark Lint and the Simulacra, recorded mostly in 2000 but finished just now.
academia, aesthetics, Amy Bishop, Andy Warhol, art, art-world, Arthur Danto, avant-garde, Avatar, DVD commentary tracks, G.W.F. Hegel, Immanuel Kant, iPAD, Jessica Berry, John Cage, Joseph Andrew Stack, Karl Marx, Lord of the Rings, Marcel Duchamp, Perseopolis, philosophy, philosophy of history, Picasso, Plato, ready-mades, relativism, religion-bashing, smell-o-vision, The Bride & the Bachelors, University of Texas, virtual reality, Vogon poetry
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